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Jeff Martin
January 22nd, 2013, 09:40 AM
Now, is this a coincidence????? First newsletter since June 2011, btw.


1548



http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter9.pdf



BTW, it includes a good summary of the technical issues involved in the Phantom testing.




Jeff

gmbtempe
January 22nd, 2013, 11:24 AM
Definitely not.

DS
January 22nd, 2013, 11:34 AM
Interesting that they are adding in spin due to Rate of Closure. Kelvin and you can be thanked for that. Also note that RoC contributes to slice spin, as I posted earlier, and Kelvin and you disagreed. Kelvin's "Bumble Bee" article needs some updating.


http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?488-Rate-of-Closure-vs-Face-Path

gmbtempe
January 22nd, 2013, 12:00 PM
Interesting that they are adding in spin due to Rate of Closure. Kelvin and you can be thanked for that. Also note that RoC contributes to slice spin, as I posted earlier, and Kelvin and you disagreed. Kelvin's "Bumble Bee" article needs some updating.


http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?488-Rate-of-Closure-vs-Face-Path

Ha missed that whole discussion, which was solid.

gmbtempe
January 22nd, 2013, 12:40 PM
The disussion at the bottom of page 7 is so interesting, I swear had a similar short conversation with Kelvin when we were discussing the ball-club face collision/rate of closure last month.

Jeff Martin
January 22nd, 2013, 02:03 PM
"an" is singular, last time I checked. Sauce for the goose...



1549



Obviously, multiple cameras are better, but, alas...





Jeff

gmbtempe
January 22nd, 2013, 02:52 PM
Its amazing isnt it, why on earth is it bad to try and get the best possible information, its mind numbing really.

John Thomas
January 22nd, 2013, 07:31 PM
Just a question

Say you hit it right on the button , cog etc line up , and zero out a straight ball.

Which one would have more fade / draw bias ? A slow Roc or high Roc?

gmbtempe
January 23rd, 2013, 08:17 AM
slow rate

AAA
January 23rd, 2013, 10:35 AM
So although they don't come out and say it this way, what they are really saying is that closure rate mitigates gear effect. IOW, pretty much exactly what Kelvin has been arguing for months.

Taken one step further, it confirms the desirablility of a strong grip and shut face at the top, which typically correlate with a slow closure rate. You take the extra variable out of play, or at least diminish it's effect.

AAA
January 23rd, 2013, 10:41 AM
Just a question

Say you hit it right on the button , cog etc line up , and zero out a straight ball.

Which one would have more fade / draw bias ? A slow Roc or high Roc?

They say there are three things that infuence spin axis, D-plane, gear effect and ROC. Gear effect is created by off center impact. A toe hit would create hook spin via gear effect. They posit that a higher ROC contributes fade bias, in effect counteracting the gear effect.

gmbtempe
January 23rd, 2013, 10:42 AM
So although they don't come out and say it this way, what they are really saying is that closure rate mitigates gear effect. IOW, pretty much exactly what Kelvin has been arguing for months.

Taken one step further, it confirms the desirablility of a strong grip and shut face at the top, which typically correlate with a slow closure rate. You take the extra variable out of play, or at least diminish it's effect.

Thats my read, its part of the stuff I worked on with a MORAD based instructor (strong grip, CP), though at the time the actual physics, dynamics, were not understood.

AAA
January 23rd, 2013, 10:52 AM
Interesting that they are adding in spin due to Rate of Closure. Kelvin and you can be thanked for that. Also note that RoC contributes to slice spin, as I posted earlier, and Kelvin and you disagreed. Kelvin's "Bumble Bee" article needs some updating.


http://jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?488-Rate-of-Closure-vs-Face-Path

I had some conceptual difficulty with your earlier posts on this subject. Armed with the Trackman article, I went back and reread them and you were spot on correct. I also agree with your argument that using ROC to fight a hook is problematic.

AAA
January 23rd, 2013, 10:54 AM
AJ Bonner may have to go back and rethink his magic move. LOL.

Jeff Martin
January 24th, 2013, 02:16 PM
Richie Hunt is at the PGA merchandise show and posted this over at Jeff Mann's site:


I was told by 4 different people strongly affiliated with Trackman that the newsletter was in direct response to Jeff Martin and Kelvin Miyahira's work.


I just laughed out loud. I invited them to stop by and observe (several times), but they declined (the head of Trackman tech support, Kevin Noble, is based in Phoenix and was in town that week). Now they are publishing a newsletter attempting to discredit testing done in their own backyard that they were invited to attend but didn't? How lame is that. Like many, I had assumed the newsletter was primarily directed at Flightscope's Phantom AoA test data, which is very damning, but I guess not...




Jeff

Travis Vedder
January 24th, 2013, 02:26 PM
They failed to anticipate that someone would be willing to plunk down so much money to buy a TrackMan and then declare that it is a huge rip-off........

Jeff Martin
January 24th, 2013, 02:38 PM
They failed to anticipate that someone would be willing to plunk down so much money to buy a TrackMan and then declare that it is a huge rip-off........


Shit happens!

nmgolfer
January 24th, 2013, 03:11 PM
Jeff et al

I read the newsletter and am pleased that trackman has finally attempted to address the unknown accuracy issue. But in my opinion their effort is insufficient. I would like to see them prepare a scientific paper presenting both the detailed methodology and results of their accuracy study. Then those results should be independently replicated as is required by legitimate science. I also wonder how useful the device really is. They are reporting +/- 1 degree uncertainty for key parameters. I suspect most users find the bulk of their swing measurements bound by the uncertainty of the device. So how useful is it? If on one swing you have a path of +2 measurement and on another you have +1 or +3 you cannot ascertain any legitimate difference. When you add the uncertainty of all parameters measured, how much do you really know? Are you just fooling yourself into mistakenly believing you've made a swing change during the session?

Anyway congrats on getting Trackman to respond to your's and Kelvins independent inquiry Jeff.

gmbtempe
January 24th, 2013, 04:24 PM
Jeff et al

I read the newsletter and am pleased that trackman has finally attempted to address the unknown accuracy issue. But in my opinion their effort is insufficient. I would like to see them prepare a scientific paper presenting both the detailed methodology and results of their accuracy study. Then those results should be independently replicated as is required by legitimate science. I also wonder how useful the device really is. They are reporting +/- 1 degree uncertainty for key parameters. I suspect most users find the bulk of their swing measurements bound by the uncertainty of the device. So how useful is it? If on one swing you have a path of +2 measurement and on another you have +1 or +3 you cannot ascertain any legitimate difference. When you add the uncertainty of all parameters measured, how much do you really know? Are you just fooling yourself into mistakenly believing you've made a swing change during the session?

Anyway congrats on getting Trackman to respond to your's and Kelvins independent inquiry Jeff.

I know someone who claims that its perfect for him so he can make the smallest degree of changes to fine tune his swing.

Jeff Martin
January 24th, 2013, 04:33 PM
I know someone who claims that its perfect for him so he can make the smallest degree of changes to fine tune his swing.


Is he as smart as Mike Finney???



Jeff

Travis Vedder
January 24th, 2013, 04:40 PM
Any timeline for when Kelvin will release the main findings of his TrackMan testing? Hopefully this newsletter motivates him to release them sooner rather than later.......

Jeff Martin
January 24th, 2013, 04:49 PM
Any timeline for when Kelvin will release the main findings of his TrackMan testing? Hopefully this newsletter motivates him to release them sooner rather than later.......


Patience...


BTW, how long does it take before Manzella starts posting that the Trackman newsletter had "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MARTIN AND MIYAHIRA!!!!!!!!"



Jeff

Lloyd Higley
January 25th, 2013, 06:40 AM
He is at PGA show
http://mytrackman.com/explore/trackman-news?nc=8f8dbaec-7d5a-4b10-a0a7-ac51e49eb286

gmbtempe
January 25th, 2013, 08:09 AM
He is at PGA show
http://mytrackman.com/explore/trackman-news?nc=8f8dbaec-7d5a-4b10-a0a7-ac51e49eb286

Interesting statistic on the website, just from my feel the website trafic is not nearly what it was when I first joined 3 years ago. Maybe peope are afraid to post but the number of topics and length of threads seems to have diminished to me.

Jeff Martin
January 25th, 2013, 10:43 PM
Patience...


BTW, how long does it take before Manzella starts posting that the Trackman newsletter had "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH MARTIN AND MIYAHIRA!!!!!!!!"



Jeff



What did I tell you? Not The One-Eyed Manzella, but a reasonable facsimile...


1557





Jeff

Richie Hunt
January 26th, 2013, 08:00 AM
What did I tell you? Not The One-Eyed Manzella, but a reasonable facsimile...


1557

That is 100% bullshit.

I should know, given 4 different people who work closely with the company told me differently on Wednesday at the PGA Show.

I didn't think anything of it. I think it's their prerogative to refute criticisms. I don't understand the continued deceit of Manzella students to try and claim otherwise.







3JACK

John Thomas
January 26th, 2013, 09:13 AM
Grenado just got blown up