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Thread: Rocking back to the top!!! A chronology...

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    4,096
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie3Jack View Post
    I took a look at that thread on FB yesterday. I can't believe Clayton was banned. I'm not sure what more could you ask from Clayton...he cited scientific evidence, cited the main scientist in the thread discussions (Nesbit) and didn't use any personal insults (unlike Finney) and wasn't being condescending (unlike Brian and Finney).

    I thought these golf science guys and researchers were 'open to debate' and welcomed criticism.

    It appears that is just purely nonsense to make themselves sound good.

    3JACK
    That's such a quaint, and outdated, view of science. I used to envision expressionless middle-aged men (sorry, ladies!), straight out of the "Mad Men" era, wearing a shirt and tie, white lab coat and glasses, maybe working someplace like the Rand Corporation or Bell Labs, being asked to "look into things" in a dispassionate way and report back. No agendas, no biases, no egos. Just the facts, ma'am. Not any more. It's all about funding these days, which leads directly to advocacy and tribalism. The "peer review" process is a joke. I had Professor Duffey try to tell me on Facebook that the "scientific method" is the "peer review process" of publication. Nope, hardly. Read the "Climategate" emails to get an idea how that system is used to squelch science, not expand it.

    BTW, my "aha" moment with the "golf biomechanists" happened when Nick Chertock, the accountant from San Francisco who set up the Golf Biomechanist group on Facebook, told me that he REPRESENTED the biomechanists as a "promoter", and the group was a platform for them, not a place for them to be challenged! Remember this puff piece he published for them, in the guise of a "report"? It's just an infomercial.


    http://golfprogress.net/wordpress/wp.../02/3Dgolf.pdf



    Jeff

  2. #32
    for the record, i signed up for an account under the name "grant hooper" and i was immediately banned and not allowed to post. i tried to sign up for a second name and same thing.

    i dont know if he was even personally aware of this, but manzella did tell me i could personally contact him with any questions i had about trackman or anything. its his prerogative to filter his site, which i vehemently disagree with, especially for someone so interested in science, which involves peer review. but i do appreciate his personally reaching out to me to give me his cell number to contact him at...

    sounds like its part of the new zero tolerance.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Richie3Jack View Post
    I took a look at that thread on FB yesterday. I can't believe Clayton was banned. I'm not sure what more could you ask from Clayton...he cited scientific evidence, cited the main scientist in the thread discussions (Nesbit) and didn't use any personal insults (unlike Finney) and wasn't being condescending (unlike Brian and Finney).

    I thought these golf science guys and researchers were 'open to debate' and welcomed criticism.

    It appears that is just purely nonsense to make themselves sound good.





    3JACK
    Richie -

    Thanks. I thought my questions were right on point. I wished Rob the best since I like him and there's no need to stay where I'm unable to post. My questions went to the heart of the matter which is I believe (my personal opinion) that Brian makes stuff up from the scientists and then uses bits and pieces of their work for his new "groundbreaking" "super spectacular" "best in the business" teaching. I get that he wants to separate himself and everyone extrapolates something from science, but don't get pissed and mad when others question you and logically show you the massive holes in your extrapolations. Brian (initially) wouldn't even admit that Nesbit's work was not tied to dynamic loft even after I told him repeatedly that Nesbit himself informed me that his hand path paper was not tied to dynamic loft. I wasn't about to ask Brian, I went straight to Nesbit months ago with this question because it dawned on me that Brian was using his work to make certain claims when the purpose of the paper had nothing to do with these claims. Who has a goofy hand path that plays golf at a high level? Of course, there was rampant bad teaching on tour about the undefined handle dragging.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
    That's such a quaint, and outdated, view of science. I used to envision expressionless middle-aged men (sorry, ladies!), straight out of the "Mad Men" era, wearing a shirt and tie, white lab coat and glasses, maybe working someplace like the Rand Corporation or Bell Labs, being asked to "look into things" in a dispassionate way and report back. No agendas, no biases, no egos. Just the facts, ma'am. Not any more. It's all about funding these days, which leads directly to advocacy and tribalism. The "peer review" process is a joke. I had Professor Duffey try to tell me on Facebook that the "scientific method" is the "peer review process" of publication. Nope, hardly. Read the "Climategate" emails to get an idea how that system is used to squelch science, not expand it.

    BTW, my "aha" moment with the "golf biomechanists" happened when Nick Chertock, the accountant from San Francisco who set up the Golf Biomechanist group on Facebook, told me that he REPRESENTED the biomechanists, and the group was a platform for them, not a place for them to be challenged! Remember this puff piece he published for them, in the guise of a "report"? It's just an infomercial.


    http://golfprogress.net/wordpress/wp.../02/3Dgolf.pdf





    Jeff
    Science is a business, full of self-interested backstabbing bitches who will go to any lengths to promote their own interests, like any any other. Scientists are as full of shit as anyone else.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by coach View Post
    Sandtrap is pretty active, the Facebook forums have not much to offer anymore.
    So are Jeffy Golf, GolfWRX and Sandtrap the only active instruction forums these days? How bout Secret In The Dirt?

  6. #36
    Brian has no idea the early closing of the club face in the downswing delofts the club face. He also has no idea how side bend shallows out ones AoA. Not only doesn't he understand these two areas, he has no idea how early closing of the club face must occur with side bend to hit the ball straight. He even used the words side bend and extension together in a post the other day that made no sense whatsoever in any context. To quote him, GEEZ!

    If you are a slicer then pulling the grip off the shaft will help you slam the face shut and might straighten out your slice somewhat.

    Every non-Manzella instructor knows he avoids any detailed information about the body. Giving someone the "business" is not teaching body movement with any precision. All arms, shoulders and hands with him. If that's what you want then he's perfect for you. But the best ball strikers are more rotational in nature. That's not to say you can't play well with hands, arms and shoulders, but that is more of an exception than the norm.

  7. #37
    Someone brought it to my attention that Brian's twistaway move referenced the early closing of the clubface in the downswing. Technically, this person is correct as evidenced by this video: http://www.golf.com/video/twist-shaft-sweet-hits

    I believe Brian touted twistaway as a backswing move, however, he did reference it can be used in the downswing but he's all over the place when this should happen. See 1:10-1:20. But, if one closes the clubface early in the downswing they also must increase their side bend. You cannot just close the clubface early with a shoulder/arms/hands/early extension driven swing or else you will hit hooks. Plus, the early closing of the clubface in the downswing is a key ingredient for what elite ballstrikers do. This isn't some quick fix, this is a key ingredient (along with side bend and many other moves). Has anyone ever heard Brian reference the early closing of the clubface is a key move in the EARLY part of the downswing? Has anyone ever heard him indicate that the early closing in the downswing must coincide with increased side bend? Shouldn't key moves be the first part of any lesson or at least discussed?

    Pulling the grip off the shaft isn't how tour pros shallow out their AoA. They do it primarily with side bend. Language counts folks and you can't just talk in general terms and then one day say you we specific.

  8. #38
    Interesting posts . Do we have any thread listing what body motions effect the face and shaft plane

  9. #39
    I don't know why they attack Richie and Clay because history shows they are straight up posters etc , probably cause they interact with Jeffy Golf

  10. #40
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    They attack ANYONE who visits this site. They are dying to know who the posters are like you dooku, and others who don't use there names. I have never hidden my real name from anyone on any site. According to Finney half of you are just Jeffs imaginary friends and Jeff posts under those names , especially you dooku, opps I mean Jeff.

  11. #41
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by dooku View Post
    I don't know why they attack Richie and Clay because history shows they are straight up posters etc , probably cause they interact with Jeffy Golf
    I like Rob also, think he is a good instructor and have had many, many, private conversations with him. I was surprised that he stopped allowing Clay to post saying someone was complaining to him about Clay. The funnest thing was as he was pm ing me I got 5 pms from people complaining about Brians condescending attitude and how he wouldn't answer Clays original question. If they hadn't have been private messages I would have forwarded them to him, but he gave up being the administer of the site and turned it over to Brian...like the fox guarding the hen house.

  12. #42
    The original post was deleted and in response Brian created a new thread/statement as follows (the yellow highlighting is mine and this is a Word version of the post):

    B Man Opus.png

    1) I thought this stuff about hand path/normal force was new and revolutionary? Nope, been around since at least 1969.

    2) Brian finally admitted that Nesbit's paper wasn't tied to dynamic loft and AoA, however, Brian then states one can't deloft the club like a pro and have a shallow angle of attack unless your hand path goes upward and inward. There is nothing in Nesbit's paper about delofting the club like a pro and/or shallowing the AoA and yet Brian claimed that was a conclusion of the paper (he first said it was a premise of the paper then he said it was a conclusion and then he said both). That certainly wasn't a conclusion in the paper since tour players weren't even used in the study and dynamic loft and AoA weren't referenced in the study. Regardless, there is no practical way for someone to determine if their hand path is upward and/or inward enough on the range. (Of course, if they can do it from high speed video that would be very ironic given the claims thrown against Kelvin's work with 2D video). Who exactly are these people teaching goofy hand paths???

    3) Brian admits that the best players orient their body in a certain way to swing properly. I agree with him there. The issue is how do they do it? Not by throwing a drunk of their back. It isn't that simple nor is it as simple as pulling the grip off the shaft near impact.

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by coach View Post
    They attack ANYONE who visits this site. They are dying to know who the posters are like you dooku, and others who don't use there names. I have never hidden my real name from anyone on any site. According to Finney half of you are just Jeffs imaginary friends and Jeff posts under those names , especially you dooku, opps I mean Jeff.
    Yes you are another one they attack . But I'm certainly not Jeff and neither are other posters . Jeff clearly writes and knows more about the swing and other stuff than me

  14. #44
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    I do 5-10 lessons a day 6 days a week, I never had a mentor to learn from, which looking back may have been good depending on the mentor. I have made my fair share of mistakes. I have learned on my own, spent time this last winter with a lot of good instructors, world famous ones at times, learned something from all of them. Seen Brian teach, he is a good instructor as good as most, seen Kelvin teach and was impressed with his results. Wish I could have had time to pick his brain and talk swing but he was busy with paying customers. I really am looking forward to spending more time with Chris Como this winter talking swing. I Hit balls with Jeff for 3 days, filming, talking, and enjoyed it . I have yet to see anyone who puts more time and more work into their practice than Jeff. If I was gonna take a lesson there are probably a few I would go to, top on that list would be Lucas, and in the top group would be Tyler, and Ryan Cheney. I am in very beginning stages of trying to get something going with Andrea here in America that could be big. Anyways I really don't care if they attack me, anyone who knows my life story knows some silly golf instructors on forums behind keyboards saying stuff is not even worth thinking about. What they do is of zero concern to me. I just keep plugging along, I use what I need to use to make my student a little better.

  15. #45
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Clay Davidson View Post
    Someone brought it to my attention that Brian's twistaway move referenced the early closing of the clubface in the downswing. Technically, this person is correct as evidenced by this video: http://www.golf.com/video/twist-shaft-sweet-hits

    I believe Brian touted twistaway as a backswing move, however, he did reference it can be used in the downswing but he's all over the place when this should happen. See 1:10-1:20. But, if one closes the clubface early in the downswing they also must increase their side bend. You cannot just close the clubface early with a shoulder/arms/hands/early extension driven swing or else you will hit hooks. Plus, the early closing of the clubface in the downswing is a key ingredient for what elite ballstrikers do. This isn't some quick fix, this is a key ingredient (along with side bend and many other moves). Has anyone ever heard Brian reference the early closing of the clubface is a key move in the EARLY part of the downswing? Has anyone ever heard him indicate that the early closing in the downswing must coincide with increased side bend? Shouldn't key moves be the first part of any lesson or at least discussed?

    Pulling the grip off the shaft isn't how tour pros shallow out their AoA. They do it primarily with side bend. Language counts folks and you can't just talk in general terms and then one day say you we specific.
    Hall of Fame post Clay

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