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Thread: Scientific bias, Dr. Kwon-style

  1. #1
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    Scientific bias, Dr. Kwon-style

    A few weeks ago, Lucas Wald and I agreed to travel to Denton, TX to visit Dr. Kwon at his "biomechanics" lab there. We were scheduled to be there tomorrow.

    I had been corresponding with Kwon for awhile, and sent him links to posts I made in the "What's wrong with this picture?" thread, using TPI data to illustrate the difference between an elite player, with a strong second fire, and Arron Oberholser, who has none. These graphs, I thought, said it all:

    A dramatic lift of the pelvis and thorax for Mr. Elite, powered by the "fearsome foursome" in the second fire, and none for Arron (Pro3):

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    And the "successive peaks" of rotational velocity (powered by the spine engine-driven first fire) and vertical lift velocity (driven by the ground-up second fire) for the elite player:

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    I assumed that, after reviewing what I had prepared, Dr. Kwon would have an "aha" moment, and respond along the lines of "Yes, now I think I understand what you've been trying to tell me". But, instead, he produced nearly identical data (from three past and current PGA tour pros) and proclaimed that the data "clearly show[s] that the downswing is a single bout action with one acceleration phase". Below is the data he sent me. As you can see, in each case the rotational velocity of the pelvis peaks before the center of mass vertical velocity peaks, two distinctly separate acceleration phases. But, instead of seeing that as evidence of a first and second fire, Dr. Kwon said it showed the opposite!


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    What Dr. Kwon calls the "unweighing phase" is the squat: as the hips and knees flex, the golfer "drops down" and, on force plates, appears to "unweight". Of course, the "leg action during the downswing after the unweighing phase" is the second fire.

    Things went downhill from there. From Kwon's words and tone, I concluded his primary interest in our visit was "score settling" with Kelvin and rubbing our nose in what he thought were our many "misconceptions". Rather than wanting to learn how Lucas accomplished his stunning transformation, he wanted to show us that we were numbskulls.

    Although Kwon promised to keep our visit private, the details somehow "leaked" to Brian Manzella, who posted them on his site. That "leak", plus Kwon's condescending tone in our correspondence, quickly settled things for me. I have no interest in spending my time and money furthering the research of the likes of Dr. Kwon.

    BTW, Lucas never really saw the point of the visit. He had spoken to Kwon and concluded that there was very little, or nothing, they could tell us that would be of much use to us, so he was more than happy to cancel. I guess I was the foolishly optimistic one, who underestimated the reality of scientific bias: Kwon believes the downswing is a "single bout action with one acceleration phase", and that's what his research will show.




    Jeff

  2. #2
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    Its a shame that the visit couldn't have been an open minded meeting of ideas and testing. I was looking forward to sharing ideas, testing those ideas and working together to see why some of the elite do things and others don't.

  3. #3
    i am not sure how to describe the on going exchanges between the 2 main parties, i chuckle, i cringe, i learn something, so be it....on some level spirited and over the top exchanges may be needed to move golf forward...

    after seeing dr kwon stating that second fire is essentially leg actions after unweighing, it has settled for me that both parties have for the first time concurred that second fire exists. so now everyone agrees with everyone it is conceivable that some out there have more of this leg action and others less or none.

    to me, everything affects everything. structure dictates function. legs, hips and spine do not exist in their own respective vacuum. legs affect hips and hips affect spine. one of my biggest problems with so called scientific approach into the wonderful world of reality is that often we miss the big picture terribly by focusing with near and narrow vision, or worse, assuming we can study something in isolation.

    so what's in it for me? with my very limited and singular experience, i find the second fire concept particularly helpful and effective in driver swing. a very common problem for a decent player with the usual inside approach into impact is that very often hooks come from upper limb speed outracing the lower. with second fire in mind and in practice, it is very difficult to hook a shot bad. this revelation may be helpful to some out there because it offers a solid alternative to swinging easy,,,

  4. #4
    Can't tell you anything right now before official publication, but some folks that have looked at it in 2d and with 3D kinematics, without having any idea of the kinetics involved and the very detailed look at the ground reaction forces, are 180 in error in their assumptions about important details pre-impact at at impact.

    Without understanding forces and torques and ground reaction forces, analyzing golf swings are a really poor guess.

    Teaching AFTER THE FACT positions without knowing the forces and torques needed at the handle and at the ground (the only 2 things the golfer is in direct contact with) is hoping for the best and infinitely inferior to the hand path and the forces and torques.

    Always was, always will be.


    ^^^ is Manzabbles quote . I'm not certain this guy is operating on a full packet of marbles , unless Kwons analysis can tell exactly how forces / torques in the swing were produced and same with GRF . I would suspect Kwon analysis can't provide any information on exactly how things happened

  5. #5
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    It is what it is, one small part of a bigger picture. Nothing earth shattering , nothing we haven't seen or heard before from Dr. Kwon and lots of others. COM, COP, GRF, Moment arms, etc. Not going to change how I train my serious students. Like I said results speak volumes, I have seen gains with Lucas students, and more importantly with my students and my own personal swing using Kelvins concepts. I am not out to prove who's right or wrong, I am out to be the best instructor I can be for my students.

  6. #6
    Lukman Ahmed Guest
    Manwithsmartfriendz:
    They are going to put something official out, but a lot of the good stuff that interests me and the rest of the guys won't be available any other way then to visit TWU and ask the right questions. They ain't writing a book.

    The comedy/tragedy of folks trying to figure out what Kwon and Como might say about that swing, or what the data says, (especially when it is interpreted correctly) is more sad then anything else. Not even in the vicinity of the depth of knowledge of these two guys. I wish I had time to go get my Masters degree from Kwon. And then another from Duffy. And then MacKenzie, Nesbit, and Zick.

    But I am friends with all of those guys, and with Paul Wood and Art. Now I have access to the smart guys at Callaway as well. So, I'll keep pushing the envelope.
    No--the tragedy is that science is about transparency, idiot.

    By pushing the envelope do you mean just having other people "do work" for you and not being able to understand it? If you can't take a 30 minute conversation and distill it to a couple pages you're either a moron or your claim about all this alleged information is nothing but puffery.

    Is this some kind of marketing to keep people on your sites?

    "Hey, there's this super exclusive info I can only leak out to you or run and get for you. Nevermind the fact that the Kwon reports that were published at Golf Wise Guys were just a huge data dump that didn't offer any interpretation or analysis--you, the paying members, should do the work!"

    So...Guys Wise Up can get you some numbers and you can make sense of it...??

    Nice business model.

    Jeff--maybe you should explain to them how a successful arbitrage actually works?

  7. #7
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    Geez, it just gets worse...


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    Where is Manzella's article archive? Nowhere. He doesn't have any articles. Video archive? The one on Vimeo? Don't make me laugh.

    For free? Golf Wise Guys? The "new release" video? All those other timeless videos like "Confessions of a Former Flipper", etc.? Those were free?

    Kelvin has published 47 articles since December 2008 and published dozens of videos on Youtube, and hasn't charged for any of them.

    Buffonery, thy name is Manzella...




    Jeff

  8. #8
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    A softball from Manzella...

    Manzella poses this question:


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    It most likely means Sadlowski is swinging up (sure looks like it on video). Sasho MacKenzie sent force plate data and corresponding images of impact to Doug Marsh for three swings performed by Sasho: normal driver swing, ascending blow, descending blow. The ascending blow had much more pressure on the back foot, even though the COM distribution was more or less the same in all three swings.

    For this reason, Marsh recommends that the biomechanists "parse out" the influence of swing dynamics from weight distribution when looking at COP distribution. Do the Kwomos do that?




    Jeff

  9. #9
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    More clueless than ever...

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    The COP distribution is the effect, moron.






    Jeff

  10. #10
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    You can ask the same question a billion times, Brian, but the COP distribution is an effect that results from the golfer's movements, not the other way around.





    Jeff

  11. #11
    Lukman Ahmed Guest
    He probably should have opted to take a "notebook" full of notes on the Marsh article...

    The fact that he can't grasp basic cause/effect relationships is just another tragedy.

  12. #12
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    And like that, the exchange is gone!!!


    Bman, you give clowns a bad name...





    Jeff

  13. #13
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    And, take that, Jeff Martin!!!

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    Brian, quit while you are behind. If you know so goddamn much from these PhDs, than why can't you produce results?





    Jeff

  14. #14
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    Yeah, and I answered it immediately upon seeing the question. I knew the answer; I didn't have to call anyone on speed-dial.

    On this new question, I have no idea what you are talking about. And I don't care. When you or Chris Como or anyone else working with the "scientists" can match the results Kelvin and Lucas achieve, then I'll take an interest and listen. In the meantime, keep preaching to the clueless.





    Jeff

  15. #15
    Lukman Ahmed Guest
    The guy postures for a living. When you're neither genuine nor smart enough to do the job you posture.

    Unfortunately, this is something he even did with his "tribute" to Big Don:
    Don is quoted and copied everyday by folks that never met him, and probably don’t remember or know where they learned “it” from. His influence on me is permanent ingrained. Just watch anyone of my 100+ videos on Golf.com. A lot of Donald Paul Villavaso in every explanation.
    Much of that "tribute" was copied verbatim from an older post.

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