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Thread: Just a guess??? I think not.

  1. #1

    Just a guess??? I think not.

    For over two years now we have been subjected to a bunch of instruction about going normal and how important it is to go normal. In fact, Brian M admitted the other day that going normal and how one does it is the most important thing one does in the golf swing. Of course, Brian's best explanation for how one goes normal is to pull the grip off the shaft. He has been promoting this idea for over two and a half years as evidenced by this post:

    Release Ideas.png

    The best golfers in the world "hold" their trail wrist extension much longer through impact than most golfers who flip and they supinate more with the trail forearm then rapidly trying to pronate it like a flip roller. It is much more than just a look. That look of the club staying behind the left forearm has significant biomechanical movements behind it. It's not a guess and never has been for those who understand movement and actually examined what high level players do.

    Do you want to pattern what the best in the world already do or someone's personal interpretation of science?

    Are these golfers trying to "hold" their trail wrist extension on purpose? I don't think so. They just release it later than a flipper and typically don't have a massive cast at the top and all of the forces from that cast. You can't just boil this stuff down to some pet names. It isn't that simple.

    *** If you look closely in this thread you'll notice that Brian subtly creates an informal fallacy by asserting that teachers teach either a pull or push. The problem with this informal fallacy is that Brian presumes someone who teaches a "push" against the shaft is by default ignoring any pulling action.

    I believe this swing best exemplifies a straight pushing action:

    Who teaches this type of swing folks???? Why the informal fallacies?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Spot on, Clay. I've taken lessons since I was a kid, so that's close to 50 years. I do remember that in the 1970s "pull with the left arm" was popular. But, by the mid-1980s, Jimmy Ballard was the rage, and everyone was actively "firing" the right side. However, nobody, as in NOBODY, ever talked about "pushing the handle through", not even Brian Manzella at the two schools I attended. Of course, I never took lessons from Ben Doyle or Lynn Blake, but, shit, after sitting down and trying to decipher the "little yellow book", who the hell would? This is a jihad against strawmen. Clueless instruction for the clueless by the clueless.


  3. #3
    He keeps trying to call a pumpkin a watermelon hoping that it's contents will become sweet and juicy.

    It is ridiculous that he keeps shouting about teaching that doesn't exist (i.e., push only). He never, ever provides pictures or videos of what this push style of teaching looks like despite repeated demands for well over two years. Why not? Well maybe this push only teaching doesn't exist or if it does, it looks like Lexi above (who he touts as a perfect example of his normal pattern)

    This all comes from Brian modeling what he thinks the science shows instead of real high level golfers. At least admit your model isn't tour players. Flip, roll, cast and jump stall is what you'll get. Some people can make it work at a very high level, but there are many more who drive/hold. My money is on the norm, not the exception.

    In the end, if there wasn't so much shouting and screaming about how right he is and wrong everybody else is nobody would care.

  4. #4
    Saying that you 'go normal' by 'pulling the grip off the shaft' is about as un-scientific as it gets.

    He's trying to claim science based on *his* visual/feeling of the application.


  5. #5
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    Well you have to remember that you have to add the jump....jeeez guys. The jump adds power and normal adds stability, just do it !!!!

  6. #6
    Where is the video evidence of a bad hand path? I've asked probably 20-30 times and get nothing. The best that I can find is Lexi's video above.

    If there wasn't so much vigor behind these bold claims then nobody would care but the vigor doesn't stop.

    You are correct Richie! They have no idea when one truly goes normal and when I asked about that question I got the run around as well. I suspect they think they can see when one goes normal on video. Oh the irony!!!!

  7. #7
    I'm going to be honest . I thought going normal was just a fancy term for the release

  8. #8
    Going normal has a scientific meaning, but in the end, it just happens and when it happens for each person is timing. You can go normal and still hit horrendous shots. Trying to teach someone to go normal by pulling up on the shaft will lead to a cast/flip/roll pattern. Most people have this pattern anyway and most instructors have no idea how to teach body movement to avoid it.

    When one incorrectly uses biomechanical terms (or tries to create their our own language) on a consistent basis then I know that person doesn't know enough about the body as they might think. People that know how the body works don't make these blunders. Language counts folks.

  9. #9
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    Young-Hoo Kwon : In my perspective, the force acting on the club normal to the clubhead path near the impact is not caused by your intentional pull toward your body. Rather, it is caused by your holding the grip while the club tries to move away from you.

    Or creating their own meanings to commonly known words

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Quote Originally Posted by coach View Post
    Young-Hoo Kwon : In my perspective, the force acting on the club normal to the clubhead path near the impact is not caused by your intentional pull toward your body. Rather, it is caused by your holding the grip while the club tries to move away from you.

    Or creating their own meanings to commonly known words

    Homer Kelley started that practice, sadly.

    I had heard about "the carry" for a couple years now, but had no idea what it was, other than it maybe hapened somewhere during the top half of the swing. The other day, I saw this:

    Oh. "The carry" is coming over the top. Great, fix a fault with a fault. What Brian omits is that great golfers who played with a similar OTT move, like Snead, Hogan and Jacke Burke, combined it with right side lateral bend, the move Brian is blaming for the hooks and saying the player should eliminate! But, of course, not to worry. Brian concludes with "try 'the carry' at the club", and Brian "will bet you that your game will really get better fast: your hooks will straighten out forever". What could go wrong?


  11. #11
    Lukman Ahmed Guest
    Kwon has an interesting response.

    Also, I raised this issue a long time ago at his place:

  12. #12
    Lukman, glad to see you chime in, it's been a while!

  13. #13
    I agree with Brian that these are goofy hand paths. I also don't believe anyone teaches anything like this unless it was a drill to get someone to stop a massive amateur cast. I have no idea why Lexi actually swung like that in competition, however, she did it with a wedge. Isn't it interesting that both pics below show a bent/extended trail wrist???

    Lexi and Brian.png

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Clay, you forgot who started all this handle dragging business...

    Screen Shot 2014-07-17 at 11.20.43 PM.png


  15. #15
    Lloyd Higley Guest
    Damn looks like handle dragging is rampant ....better start goin normal

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