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Thread: How Biomechanists Define Movements

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mann View Post
    Jeffy,

    You wrote-: "OK. No "black is white" bullshit here. Cut it out or we'll have to say goodbye."

    That's ridiculous! You can easily arbitrarily label your statements as being true (white and not black), and thereby regard any contrary opinion as being untrue (black and not white). That type of behaviour is what BM would do, and you decried his behaviour.

    You also wrote-: "Post your evidence, not just assertions."

    Why do I have to present more "evidence" than is already apparent in the capture images from Tapio's video? It is obvious that the RFFW/right palm prevents the clubshaft from moving in that particular direction.

    Where is your "evidence" for the following two assertions-: i) "Second, you can't really see the right forearm, so you might as well ask "what visual evidence is there Tapio's legs don't end at the knees?" ii) "That said, there is indirect evidence because the clubface has closed in Tapio's demonstration, which means the forearms have rotated counter-clockwise."

    Jeff.
    If I have to explain it to you, you are too stupid for this forum.


    Jeff

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by footwedge View Post
    You might be but the shaft will be up higher and in a steeper position more like Fred Couples.
    I was trying to copy Tapio, not Freddie.


    Jeff

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Mann View Post
    Footwedge,

    You wrote-: "I see a rotation of the shaft in those pics of Tapio, if it was pure P.F. the shaft would lay back without rotation.

    The shaft cannot lay back because of the presence of the RFFW and right palm which abuts the aft side of the grip. They prevent the club from being angularly displaced - and the club gets torqued by the fingers if he palmar flexes his left wrist when his left wrist is maximally radially deviated.

    Jeff.
    Then how am I laying the shaft back?

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    Jeff

  4. #19
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    Jeffy you ever see Jimmy Bruen's swing? It's like a lagging club takeaway position at the top but not as severe, the lead wrist is cupped and the trail wrist is bent then just let the clubhead fall back to take out the cup and it will become flat to bowed. The trail elbow then comes in tighter at the same time.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Martin View Post
    I was trying to copy Tapio, not Freddie.


    Jeff


    Well that explains it. Sorry.

  6. #21
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    Perhaps some people don't know how to read graphs from TPI.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Name:  tpi.jpg
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    Perhaps some people don't know how to read graphs from TPI.


    What's a graph?

  8. #23
    Hey, you're smart. You don't need a graph to figure this out. Others do.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Hey, you're smart. You don't need a graph to figure this out. Others do.


    That's weird because my wife keeps saying to me " you're such an idiot"

  10. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by footwedge View Post
    That's weird because my wife keeps saying to me " you're such an idiot"
    Yes, but she doesn't talk to you about golf......

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Yes, but she doesn't talk to you about golf......


    That's because she's the smart one, and just plays. We know how to get along , she's the boss and lets me think I am, but in a subtle sneaky way!

  12. #27
    birlyshirly Guest
    Kelvin wrote "As long as there is rotation in the ulna and radial bone, there is going to be either supination or pronation occurring. From the scientific world, these are the only movements that cause axial rotation of the shaft. Left wrist supination closes the clubface while left wrist pronation opens it."

    This seems to me to be key. But it seems to be saying that IF there's axial rotation in the shaft, THEN there is supination or pronation. If that's the deal, then I understand some of Kelvin's points maybe a bit better. But I want to be clear.

    Apologies for the lack of video demo, but I hope that this is clear enough. My left forearm is resting on a table top, holding a club by the grip so that the shaft is vertical. Without moving the forearm, and WHILST KEEPING THE CLUB VERTICAL, the only move that I can make seems to me to be wrist flexion and extension. The club stays vertical, but is surely rotated axially. Is that therefore supination/pronation?

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by birlyshirly View Post
    Kelvin wrote "As long as there is rotation in the ulna and radial bone, there is going to be either supination or pronation occurring. From the scientific world, these are the only movements that cause axial rotation of the shaft. Left wrist supination closes the clubface while left wrist pronation opens it."

    This seems to me to be key. But it seems to be saying that IF there's axial rotation in the shaft, THEN there is supination or pronation. If that's the deal, then I understand some of Kelvin's points maybe a bit better. But I want to be clear.

    Apologies for the lack of video demo, but I hope that this is clear enough. My left forearm is resting on a table top, holding a club by the grip so that the shaft is vertical. Without moving the forearm, and WHILST KEEPING THE CLUB VERTICAL, the only move that I can make seems to me to be wrist flexion and extension. The club stays vertical, but is surely rotated axially. Is that therefore supination/pronation?
    Nope, what you describe is just lofting and delofting the clubface, not axial rotation, even though what you describe is popularly considered "opening" and "closing" the face when viewed at the top of the backswing. However, that is just another myth.

    Jeff Mann is doing essentially the same thing in this video, but with the wrists in ulnar deviation (uncocked), not radial deviation (cocked), as you described. BTW, Mann says the clubface is opened after performing palmar flexion of the left wrist, but that's not true, either: it is square to the arc, and after the clubhead has traveled down the arc to impact, the face would still be square.

    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20065072


    Jeff

  14. #29
    birlyshirly Guest
    Something's missing here. It could well be on my side.

    If I UD so that my ulna and radius are vertically aligned, and forearm and shaft are flat on the table top (difficult physically to do perfectly!) - then I can see flexion and extension moving the club back and forth, but the clubhead leading edge remains vertical. No axial rotation there.

    But with the wrist in RD - doesn't the same flexion and extension THEN result in axial rotation?

    Going back to my original example. With wrist in RD and clubshaft vertical - surely pronation and supination lay the clubshaft over but WITHOUT any rotation about the shaft?

    I have always worked off the understanding that the effect on the club (open/closed or lofted/delofted) depends on the combination of the 3 wrist movements we're discussing. So forearm pronation has different effects on the club depending on whether the wrist is UD or RD.

    Can you expand on why the popular definitions of open and closed face at the top of the BS are wrong? To be honest, I thought that was the point of Kelvin's video on Hogan closing the clubface through his transition.

  15. #30
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    @Jeffy I saw your video on my email I didn't know it was a video when I looked at it on the forum, now that I watched it that is exactly what I was talking about the same thing that you show in the video.

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