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Thread: The Phantom knows!!!

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lia41985 View Post
    So the jury is still out on this Phantom camera that Kelvin has in Hawaii and we should stay tuned.

    No, the "jury isn't still out". Kelvin just hasn't completed his research. Just this week on optical mirror arrived that will allow him to get a direct overhead view of impact without endangering the camera, which is very expensive.


    That implies there's some sort of future value in a potential discovery.

    Yes.


    Do you know Ping has these sorts of cameras already?
    Yes. So? Have they published any research? If so, I'd love to see it. In fact, I heard that they won't measure any of the tour players because the players don't want to know what is actually happening.


    Do you know Ping uses Trackman?
    Yes. So? Trackman is a terrific launch monitor using military grade radar. But radar isn't a very good way to evaluate what is happening at impact, especially when all Trackman can see is the back of the clubhead and ball flight.


    How long did you take to rip Trackman?

    When I learned that what Trackman and its boosters were reporting as directly measured "facts" were instead indirect estimates based on assumed relationships programmed into the software. Trackman does not have the capability to directly measure what occurs during the impact interval. That was news to A LOT of people, btw.


    You know how many people use a Trackman?

    No. Why do you ask?


    Did you stay tuned for their findings? Hmmm...

    I'm familiar with Trackman's limitations and it can't measure what occurs during the impact interval. So there are no Trackman "findings" to "stay tuned" for. Trackman can't do what an ultra-high speed camera can do. That's why Kelvin bought a Phantom instead of a Trackman. Trackman is a great launch monitor, but it is an inadequate research tool for this area of study.




    Jeff

  2. #17
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    I would say you need both a launch monitor and a high frame rate camera as the phantom. Without one of the two you might miss important information and mis-interpret the information you have.

    Btw it would be interesting to see recordings of a driver hitting light air-flow balls. The club face shouldn't open/close that much on off centre hits, so you might be able to see what impact the release style has.

  3. #18
    Lukman Ahmed Guest
    Jeff,

    The Phantom doesn't know anything and those videos are a bore. Nothing like watching 2-D footage of a 3-D event in a fuzzy black and white. It's as if there's no care for what the angle of attack is, what the path is, what the face is doing. Why? Because none of that information is gleaned from these videos. Guess what, looking at an overhead view of the angle of the face doesn't actually tell you what the face is doing. Stop living in this 2-D phantasmagorical world. Face, path, and attack angle need to be measured in 3-D.

    Plus, what the hell is the ball doing? Kelvin said it was straight? Great! I'm sure his eyes are as good as a doppler radar in telling me what a golf ball is doing. Then again his eyes used to be able to see one of the key reasons why Federer's forehand (and elite golf swings) were so good.

    It would be absurd to stay tuned for Kelvin's back calculations of his flawed data samples but hey, all I have to do is login. If Kelvin wants to revolutionize biomechanics and golf impact physics this way, good for him. While he's at it he should help Google write a newer algorithm with an abacus.

    You can either stand on the shoulders of giants and build on things or you can be a giant in your own mind and waste your time trying to figure out stuff that real experts already long figured out.

    fore,

    Ping has both!

  4. #19
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    Well if anyone knows about useless 2d pics and video's you're the guy...lol!

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by lia41985 View Post
    Jeff,

    The Phantom doesn't know anything and those videos are a bore. Nothing like watching 2-D footage of a 3-D event in a fuzzy black and white. It's as if there's no care for what the angle of attack is, what the path is, what the face is doing. Why? Because none of that information is gleaned from these videos. Guess what, looking at an overhead view of the angle of the face doesn't actually tell you what the face is doing. Stop living in this 2-D phantasmagorical world. Face, path, and attack angle need to be measured in 3-D.

    Plus, what the hell is the ball doing? Kelvin said it was straight? Great! I'm sure his eyes are as good as a doppler radar in telling me what a golf ball is doing. Then again his eyes used to be able to see one of the key reasons why Federer's forehand (and elite golf swings) were so good.

    It would be absurd to stay tuned for Kelvin's back calculations of his flawed data samples but hey, all I have to do is login. If Kelvin wants to revolutionize biomechanics and golf impact physics this way, good for him. While he's at it he should help Google write a newer algorithm with an abacus.

    You can either stand on the shoulders of giants and build on things or you can be a giant in your own mind and waste your time trying to figure out stuff that real experts already long figured out.

    fore,

    Ping has both!

    What 3D system has the capability to view what occurs during impact at a resolution of 100,000 fps?

    I think you are profoundly over-estimating the amount of research that has been conducted in this area. Who are these "real experts" and where are their studies of club/ball impact using actual subjects?




    Jeff

  6. #21
    Lukman Ahmed Guest
    footwedge,

    I'm speaking about the limitations of the medium not the uselessness of it.

    Studying impact with overhead shots using a Phantom camera has it's limitations when compared to studying impact with Enso and Trackman/Flightscope and high speed cameras.



    I'll never get tired of responding to you, old friend. Thanks for keeping things so light. You're that breath of fresh air I need around here.

  7. #22
    Lukman Ahmed Guest
    Jeff,
    You've been open about the fact that the whole sports car thing was the result of a mid-life crisis and I'm wondering if it stopped there. You're a smart and passionate guy but so much of this seems bizarre to me.

  8. #23
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    I didn't think you liked Jeff that much, "old friend"?

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lia41985 View Post
    Jeff,
    You've been open about the fact that the whole sports car thing was the result of a mid-life crisis and I'm wondering if it stopped there. You're a smart and passionate guy but so much of this seems bizarre to me.

    You think this is bizarre?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by lia41985 View Post
    I'm speaking about the limitations of the medium not the uselessness of it.

    Studying impact with overhead shots using a Phantom camera has it's limitations when compared to studying impact with Enso and Trackman/Flightscope and high speed cameras.

    Trackman/Flightscope can't "see" anything at impact so I don't know what they add other than ballflight and spin data. Enso is a little out of Kelvin's price range. Anyhow, if you think there is nothing new to be learned studying impact with a Phantom, you will be very surprised.


    Jeff

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by lia41985 View Post
    Jeff,
    You've been open about the fact that the whole sports car thing was the result of a mid-life crisis and I'm wondering if it stopped there. You're a smart and passionate guy but so much of this seems bizarre to me.

    Doesn't seem bizarre to me. I just think you are more than a few steps behind. So much of what you and so many others believe about golf is "faith-based". Thanks to Kelvin, I've broken out of that mindset. You're still stuck in it.




    Jeff

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by lia41985 View Post
    Jeff,
    You've been open about the fact that the whole sports car thing was the result of a mid-life crisis and I'm wondering if it stopped there. You're a smart and passionate guy but so much of this seems bizarre to me.
    Oh, that was just me bullshitting. There was no "mid-life crisis": I'd always wanted a really hot car, so I finally bought one.




    Jeff

  13. #28
    Lukman Ahmed Guest
    So learning how to play golf well by studying anatomy, mostly just hitting balls on the range, and engaging in a workout program fit for a young, full-time athlete isn't a mid-life crisis. What is it then? Just non-age related irrationality?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by lia41985 View Post
    So learning how to play golf well by studying anatomy, mostly just hitting balls on the range, and engaging in a workout program fit for a young, full-time athlete isn't a mid-life crisis. What is it then? Just non-age related irrationality?

    What's irrational about it? I think it is the best way to achieve my goals.



    Jeff

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by lia41985 View Post
    So learning how to play golf well by studying anatomy, mostly just hitting balls on the range, and engaging in a workout program fit for a young, full-time athlete isn't a mid-life crisis. What is it then? Just non-age related irrationality?

    No it's called life on the senior pga tour...lol!

    Lukman giving the lecture on how to live one's life...hahaha!

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