Preliminary observations with the Phantom

[Jeff Martin]

I guess my real question would be: what is the definition of "impact conditions"? My interpretation was that assuming a drive/holder has a square path and a square face at separation and produces a straight shot with a square spin axis and a flip/roller can create a set of conditions which also produce a straight shot and a square spin axis then their impact conditions were the same. Maybe "ball flight conditions" would be a better term because obviously different impact conditions occurred to create the same ball flight.

I don't look at it that way. 2+2+2=6 and 1+7-5+3=6. Same result, but different ways to get there.

Just a side question: does Kelvin have any guesses on the maximum "openness" a clubface can be at impact and still close to square by separation. And can a clubface be closed at impact and open to square by separation?

He may, but I don't know. I kind of doubt it at this point.



Jeff

[Art Maffei]

Dear Kelvin,

Thanks for these videos, they are very interesting to me now finally being able to 'see' the impact dynamics and deformation for many frames during the compression and acceleration phases of the golf ball.

I have also read with interest the comments of others on this web site as to the angular movement of the club face prior to, during and following the impact and would like to add a few science-based thoughts for your consideration.

As I am sure you and many others reading this realize, during any golf swing the velocity of the club head just before impact can be calculated as the "product" of the angular velocity times the "radius" of rotation. Said another and more interesting way, the angular velocity of the club face from this rotation alone, at the 100 plus mile per hour club head velocities result in over 2000 degrees per second club shaft and club face closure rates WITHOUT ANY SHAFT ROTATION (gamma velocity in Dr. Steve Nesbit terminology).

And this golfer-unique axial shaft rotation is IMO a major source of angular uncertainty and differences in the impact dynamics and the resultant 20-30 yard variations in where the ball lands.

I conclude that you MUST better model and understand how the center of gravity AND moment of inertia of the club head responds to rotations, or vibration/dynamics around the club shaft before you will be able to fully understand how the impact affects the golf balls TRUE launch conditions.

Can the field of view of the high speed camera be set up to also view the shaft/club head interface ??

Respectfully,
Art

[Kelvin Miyahira]

Dear Kelvin,

Thanks for these videos, they are very interesting to me now finally being able to 'see' the impact dynamics and deformation for many frames during the compression and acceleration phases of the golf ball.

I have also read with interest the comments of others on this web site as to the angular movement of the club face prior to, during and following the impact and would like to add a few science-based thoughts for your consideration.

As I am sure you and many others reading this realize, during any golf swing the velocity of the club head just before impact can be calculated as the "product" of the angular velocity times the "radius" of rotation. Said another and more interesting way, the angular velocity of the club face from this rotation alone, at the 100 plus mile per hour club head velocities result in over 2000 degrees per second club shaft and club face closure rates WITHOUT ANY SHAFT ROTATION (gamma velocity in Dr. Steve Nesbit terminology).

And this golfer-unique axial shaft rotation is IMO a major source of angular uncertainty and differences in the impact dynamics and the resultant 20-30 yard variations in where the ball lands.

I conclude that you MUST better model and understand how the center of gravity AND moment of inertia of the club head responds to rotations, or vibration/dynamics around the club shaft before you will be able to fully understand how the impact affects the golf balls TRUE launch conditions.

Can the field of view of the high speed camera be set up to also view the shaft/club head interface ??

Respectfully,
Art

Art,

I have two geniuses working with me, Rick and Jeff. I think they understand most of the known research in this area. What we are learning is far more complicated than even we had bargained for. But it is what it is.

Kelvin

[Art Maffei]

Art,

I have two geniuses working with me, Rick and Jeff. I think they understand most of the known research in this area. What we are learning is far more complicated than even we had bargained for. But it is what it is.

Kelvin

Kelvin,

Could you please ask Jeff and Rick to post a few of their favorite 'references' so I could benefit from the science already documented. If requested, I would gladly review the material and comment appropriately based on my background in dynamics, and more importantly IMO, the statistical aspects of this complicated impact condition.

Respectfully,
Art.

[Jeff Martin]

Kelvin,

Could you please ask Jeff and Rick to post a few of their favorite 'references' so I could benefit from the science already documented. If requested, I would gladly review the material and comment appropriately based on my background in dynamics, and more importantly IMO, the statistical aspects of this complicated impact condition.

Respectfully,
Art.

Art-


When I told Jon Roberts at the University of Loughborough I was looking for such research, he told me that I'd be "looking for a long time". I reviewed their two papers and they don't reference any prior research worth mentioning. Contact Jon if you'd like copies of those papers or send me your email address in a PM and I'll send them to you.


Jeff

[burley]

That's interesting, kinda out dated information though but I guess not being around the Tour and privy to being that they are now testing with bionic balls that, are the same weight and compression as the balls used to play golf, you might not get the latest info. The secret research being done with the bionic ball is pretty neat stuff since, the scope of the research is all done from inside the ball and feed back to the computer!! The ball feeds back real time data from the first touch of the club head till it lands, giving the compression rate, face angle, temp, humitity, sound decimals between impacts of speed/smash factor and loads of other data, even relates it to the position the ball is played / it's + or - AoA. Pretty much all the data is confirming the information on the new 2.0 S&T video and I say pretty much because it is giving some unknown factors that are revolutionary in regards to the ball/club relationship. This video is neat though with it's slow motion, always cool to see how much further we have moved from this older technology of slow motion video.

[Mathieu Henras]

always cool to see how much further we have moved from this older technology of slow motion video.

WTF?

[Jeff Martin]

That's interesting, kinda out dated information though but I guess not being around the Tour and privy to being that they are now testing with bionic balls that, are the same weight and compression as the balls used to play golf, you might not get the latest info. The secret research being done with the bionic ball is pretty neat stuff since, the scope of the research is all done from inside the ball and feed back to the computer!! The ball feeds back real time data from the first touch of the club head till it lands, giving the compression rate, face angle, temp, humitity, sound decimals between impacts of speed/smash factor and loads of other data, even relates it to the position the ball is played / it's + or - AoA. Pretty much all the data is confirming the information on the new 2.0 S&T video and I say pretty much because it is giving some unknown factors that are revolutionary in regards to the ball/club relationship. This video is neat though with it's slow motion, always cool to see how much further we have moved from this older technology of slow motion video.

So, burley, did the aliens that abducted you tell you about the super secret "bionic ball" before or after the anal probe???


Best,



Jeff

[burley]

So, burley, did the aliens that abducted you tell you about the super secret "bionic ball" before or after the anal probe???


Best,



Jeff

Haha Jeff, those dang Aliens!

No, seriously.. It sounds out there but it is a company in Europe, can't go into a ton of detail because I don't have that info! Just have a contact involved..
"Circ/sensors collect raw data on the ball from club movements and passes this data to a PC that has more computing power than the CPU of the circ/sensor."

[Jeff Martin]

Haha Jeff, those dang Aliens!

No, seriously.. It sounds out there but it is a company in Europe, can't go into a ton of detail because I don't have that info! Just have a contact involved..
"Circ/sensors collect raw data on the ball from club movements and passes this data to a PC that has more computing power than the CPU of the circ/sensor."

Do tell...


BTW, we're still waiting on your buds Grant and "Joseph" (LOL!) to confirm: we've been holding prime spots for them at the "clinic"...



Jeff

[burley]

Do tell...


BTW, we're still waiting on your buds Grant and "Joseph" (LOL!) to confirm: we've been holding prime spots for them at the "clinic"...



Jeff

Haha...

They know I told them... I also told them about Bionic ball...

I will post the same question I asked them...


Do "the dimples" on a golf ball negate trapped air when a ball is compressed or does it effect the process??

Fg (Golf ball) + Ff (club head) = Fr (direction/trajectory/shape) + Cf (mks 0.83 ) = Fg and Ff moving at the same speed as long as they are stuck together. So, is compression = to carry? Then, does the trapped air in the dimple equate more reaction than the COR of the face?

We know angle + direction affects the axis = to it's contact point / rotation.. So if the initial direction is 85% and rising of face angle... Would it began at impact? or thru impact? giving it's biggest effect on the balls direction to it's axis?

[Jeff Martin]

Haha...

They know I told them... I also told them about Bionic ball...

I will post the same question I asked them...


Do "the dimples" on a golf ball negate trapped air when a ball is compressed or does it effect the process??

Fg (Golf ball) + Ff (club head) = Fr (direction/trajectory/shape) + Cf (mks 0.83 ) = Fg and Ff moving at the same speed as long as they are stuck together. So, is compression = to carry? Then, does the trapped air in the dimple equate more reaction than the COR of the face?

We know angle + direction affects the axis = to it's contact point / rotation.. So if the initial direction is 85% and rising of face angle... Would it began at impact? or thru impact? giving it's biggest effect on the balls direction to it's axis?

We'll look into it...



Jeff

[burley]

We'll look into it...



Jeff

Grassyass Senior Jeffy

[Jeff Martin]

Grassyass Senior Jeffy

burley, check your PM inbox...


Jeff

[burley]

burley, check your PM inbox...


Jeff

Got it....