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Thread: Trackman, clubface rotation, and the curve of the ball

  1. #1

    Trackman, clubface rotation, and the curve of the ball

    Trackman announces that D Plane does not tell the entire story on spin axis (curve). A rotating clubface thru impact does effect curve.
    From: https://twitter.com/McLeanGolf/statu...87618845532160

  2. #2







    3JACK

  3. #3
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    From seeing Kelvin's videos with the Phantom camera it would seem that while you could get some accurate information with radar, its not telling the whole story. Do you think radar is useful for club analysis? We know it measures the ball really well but would you still use it for things like AoA, face and path?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by KC Todd View Post
    From seeing Kelvin's videos with the Phantom camera it would seem that while you could get some accurate information with radar, its not telling the whole story. Do you think radar is useful for club analysis? We know it measures the ball really well but would you still use it for things like AoA, face and path?
    To coin a term from Seth Godin, this is called measuring nothing with great accuracy. Its like saying a size of a TV correlates to the clarity of its image. Sometimes, a half truth is no better off than no truth.

    http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyl...lf-balls-.html

  5. #5
    This was discussed at the Open Forum 2. John Graham asked how does Trackman measure path. He was told that they measure the geometric center of the club 'blob' and then they measure the path of the blob. John brought up that since we don't hit the ball with the blob, is there a difference between the 'blob' path and the face path. This is where it got fuzzy and I think the consensus is that there was a difference of as much as 2-3 degrees.

    James Hirshfield brought up the point about the Rate of Closure affecting the ball flight according to Trackman. Brian Manzella argued that slower rates of closure would mean a worse golfer. I guess I could agree with that if you're talking about slow rates of closure for big hackers that are hitting huge cuts.

    In the end, I came away with thinking that RoC is so undefined and so poorly scientifically measured at this point that arguing it is a bit of an exercise of futility. What I'm curious about is the way the head moved thru impact for the great ballstrikers like Hogan, Snead, Mac, etc. But knowing precisely what is going on as far as RoC goes is still very speculative.






    3JACK

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by KC Todd View Post
    From seeing Kelvin's videos with the Phantom camera it would seem that while you could get some accurate information with radar, its not telling the whole story. Do you think radar is useful for club analysis? We know it measures the ball really well but would you still use it for things like AoA, face and path?

    I think it measures what it measures pretty well: things like path, spin, axis tilt, launch angle, height, carry distance, etc.

    However, think about the technological challenge of using radar, that can only read signals bounced off the back of the club and the ball, to measure face angle, dynamic loft, angle of attack and the geometric center of the club. It doesn't measure these things, it calculates them based off of what is reflected off the clubhead, hosel, shaft, and ball, then applies an algorithm. Is one algorithm going to be correct for all the different clubs and impact conditions?



    Jeff

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richie3Jack View Post
    This was discussed at the Open Forum 2. John Graham asked how does Trackman measure path. He was told that they measure the geometric center of the club 'blob' and then they measure the path of the blob. John brought up that since we don't hit the ball with the blob, is there a difference between the 'blob' path and the face path. This is where it got fuzzy and I think the consensus is that there was a difference of as much as 2-3 degrees.
    Trackman also measures clubhead speed at the center of the blob. Just look at the smash factors generated by Trackman: often above 1.50, even though the maximum allowable is 1.48. Obviously, Trackman is measuring clubhead speed at a point closer to the hosel, because the blob Trackman sees rarely captures the correct geometry of the clubhead.

    James Hirshfield brought up the point about the Rate of Closure affecting the ball flight according to Trackman. Brian Manzella argued that slower rates of closure would mean a worse golfer. I guess I could agree with that if you're talking about slow rates of closure for big hackers that are hitting huge cuts.
    Depends on whether ROC is measured relative to the target line or the path. A player that consistently has a zero ROC relative to the path should be pretty goddamn accurate. Manzella is just talking out of his ass.

    In the end, I came away with thinking that RoC is so undefined and so poorly scientifically measured at this point that arguing it is a bit of an exercise of futility. What I'm curious about is the way the head moved thru impact for the great ballstrikers like Hogan, Snead, Mac, etc. But knowing precisely what is going on as far as RoC goes is still very speculative.

    It shouldn't be. I was actually kind of shocked by how unsophisticated the so-called scientists are when thinking about ROC. First order of business should be to determine the ROC relative to the path and the standard deviation, then correlate the results by release style. Of course, this would require the "scientists" to invest in at least two Phantom cameras and evaluate "elite" golfers (not just low handicap golfers who are available to measure), which, to my knowledge, none of them have done yet.




    Jeff

  8. #8
    Remind me... does Trackman measure ball spin directly, or calculate it?

    I always thought they measured it directly, in which case what we've discussed before is still valid. Trust the ball data, but view the club data with scepticism.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ericpaul2 View Post
    Remind me... does Trackman measure ball spin directly, or calculate it?

    I always thought they measured it directly, in which case what we've discussed before is still valid. Trust the ball data, but view the club data with scepticism.
    Directly.



    Jeff

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